Eleanor Mawrey interviewed by The Advocacy Tutor

Eleanor Mawrey has been interviewed by Sonia Simms for The Advocacy Tutor Brief.

Spotlight on Eleanor Mawrey

Eleanor Mawrey is a barrister at Deka Chambers. She has recently been appointed as a Recorder. Eleanor has extensive experience in criminal and regulatory law and has appeared in numerous complex cases on both the prosecution and defence sides. In this interview, she addresses the use of technology in the courtroom, explains methods for handling complex cases and the Proceeds of Crime Act, and provides advocacy tips drawn from her years of practice.

1. Path to Specialisation: What inspired you to focus on serious and financial crime, and what aspects of these cases do you find most challenging and rewarding?

No small child dreams of becoming a financial crime expert; not enough of them on TV I suspect! However, once I started being exposed to fraud cases early on in my career I realised that it is just as fascinating as other areas of crime, if not more so. It’s a logical/mathematical puzzle which I really enjoy but behind that is just as much human drama; the interaction between the players and their motivation. The paper/money trail, which at first can seem overwhelming in a big case, is only part of the picture and you don’t really understand it until you explore the characters involved. It is then hugely rewarding when the truth starts to reveal itself.

2. Future of Financial Crime: How do you see the landscape of financial crime evolving over the next five years, and what challenges should advocates prepare for?

The biggest change inevitably will be the development of AI. On the positive, it is already being used to help with some of the heavy lifting when it comes to reviewing large volumes of material, and those capabilities will only grow. It is of course no substitute for human analysis, but when used as a tool should help speed up aspects such as disclosure reviews which have long plagued complex fraud investigations. On the other side, AI enables fraudsters to be increasingly sophisticated in the manner in which they carry out their deception and, with that, it becomes ever harder to detect. This is a problem for law enforcement but also for defence as it makes it far easier for the real perpetrator to create false leads.

3. Handling Complex Cases: Many of your cases involve intricate details such as digital evidence and financial analysis. How do you ensure accuracy and clarity when presenting such technical evidence to a jury?

The key is to keep it simple and build from there. Often in such cases much of the evidence is agreed, the banking data for example is what it is. Nonetheless it is important for all parties, and in particular the jury to understand how it works and more critically, what it means. The use of screens and iPads in place of paper jury bundles have made this process a lot easier as it allows you to layer the evidence in a way that enables the user to click through into ever increasing levels of detail.

4. Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA): Given your extensive experience with POCA applications, what are the common pitfalls that advocates should avoid in these cases?

We have all come to recognise that the Proceeds of Crime Act was not a well-drafted piece of legislation. In trying to keep the drafting simple, they failed to consider the wide range of scenarios it would need to cover. What in fact has happened is that there is wealth of ever changing case law that now sits alongside it, which is far from ideal. Who knew that such a simple word such a “benefit” could be so malleable! It is therefore often counterintuitive and it is important to make sure that what appears to be the common sense approach is in fact correct in law.

5. Recorder Appointment: Congratulations on your recent appointment as a Recorder! What are you most looking forward to in this judicial capacity?

Thank you! As someone who prosecutes and defends I strongly believe that this has made me a better advocate overall as it enables me to consider a case from both sides. This new challenge will provide me with yet another perspective. I hope to be a good judge and believe that seeing the court from this new angle will also help my advocacy. As a judge, you have the strongest influence over how a trial is conducted; not only getting the job done but the manner in which it takes place. There is now much more of a focus on the impact of judicial conduct and the current review by Harriet Harman into judicial bullying is long overdue. Judges’ behaviour can make a big difference on whether you want to go to work in the morning. Sadly, we all know the names of the judges nobody wants to see when the listings come out. On the flip side, good judges can be a pleasure to appear in front of. I have just finished prosecuting a long trial which, although hard work, was a genuinely positive experience for those involved and the judge’s conduct played a huge part in that. I hope to emulate that.

6. Cross-Examination Expertise: What strategies do you use to challenge experts effectively?

I rely on the old adage: preparation, preparation, preparation. The key is to know not only the specific case material but also the underlying rules and regulations covering the expertise in question. I am always shocked by how many experts don’t really know the rules governing expert witnesses for example. It is often in these peripheral areas that you can score some easy points which actually then serve to undermine their overall competency.

7. Advocacy Tips: What are your top three tips for junior advocates who specialise in crime?

Keep it simple – you may have lots of great arguments but if you over complicate it you risk all of them being lost. Make sure your few key points have landed, whether with the judge or jury, and then build from that solid foundation.

Get the witness agreeing with you – with most witnesses, even in cross, there is a lot that can be agreed. Concentrate on those points and they will be much more willing to agree to what follows than going in all guns blazing.

Find your own voice – you will see lots of great advocates who you admire, and it’s important to learn from them. However, what works for them may not work for you. So rather than simply emulating them, build confidence in your own authentic voice.

8. Technology in Advocacy: How has technology changed the way you prepare for or conduct cases? Do you see it playing a larger role in the future of advocacy?

The nature of my work means I have now done a lot of trials where the jury bundle sits on an iPad. This has been a real game changer as to how document heavy cases can be presented to the jury. It makes explaining the documents and their significance much more effective especially when used together with graphics. It does mean however that a lot of time has to be spent ahead of trial thinking about how it is going to work and setting it up; this always takes much longer than anticipated to get right but the time invested pays dividends when it comes to the trial itself.

9. Work-Life Balance: Balancing a demanding legal career with personal life can be challenging. How do you maintain this balance?

Life at the Bar is very demanding; and trials, especially once up and running, dominate everything. There are very few jobs out there where days off aren’t guaranteed and holidays always come with the risk of disruption. It has taken me time, and I am not yet sure I have the balance quite right, but I have got better at learning to switch off and embracing those quieter periods to step away without feeling guilty. I am lucky to have a very understanding and supportive husband and family without whom it would not be possible. You have to juggle to make things work and learn to prioritise. Perhaps most importantly you have to accept that you cannot do everything all of the time, which doesn’t come naturally to the perfectionist amongst us! Remember to take time to recharge. I try to have one day clear a week when I don’t get on the laptop/emails. It isn’t always possible and can mean long days before and after to accommodate it but I do feel better equipped, and indeed focused, if I have that break.

10. Diversity in Law: What steps do you think the legal profession needs to take to become more inclusive and diverse?

I have long been involved in EDI at the Bar and am just coming to the end of a long tenure as Director of EDI for the CBA and as Vice-Chair of EDI for Bar Council. Many very positive steps have been taken over the years but there is still a long way to go. Income disparity is a very big concern; it is across every area of practice and most significantly across all levels of call. There is a complacency amongst some that given time, diversity issues will resolve themselves overtime and are a legacy of an old era but that does not explain why female barristers of 1-3 years earn significantly less than their male counterparts. The same is true for black barristers, who are still being paid less than their white colleagues. More needs to be done within chambers and given we are a referral profession we need to work more closely with the solicitors instructing us, to address this.

11. Role Reversal: If you were not a barrister, what career path might you have pursued, and why?

As a student, I was the Arts Editor of the student paper and was even nominated for the Guardian Student Feature writer of the year. Many of the skills of journalism overlap with that of a barrister: understanding a story, digging to get to the truth and then presenting it to an audience. However, being a barrister was always my first love.

12. Legal TV Dramas: Are there any depictions of barristers in TV or film that you find particularly accurate—or hilariously unrealistic?

I’m from the generation that grew up watching This Life and whilst the vast majority of it was very overblown some parts rang true; I remember a scene where Anna and Milly are in the Mags Court dealing with a case about a stolen shopping trolley which perfectly summed up how unglamorous life at the Bar can sometimes be. One thing that all TV dramas get right is the real buzz when the jury comes in to deliver their verdict. After over 20 years at the Bar, the adrenaline still kicks in as you wait to hear the outcome.

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